Real life, with a dash of Doctor Who

Just sharing, but I welcome open discussion. :)

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bunny-chan85.livejournal.com

I just felt like there should've been more to say about Penny. The essay starts off saying how mature Buffy is to not have to choose between two men, but then a big chunk of the rest of the essay just explains how Dr. Horrible would've been a bad fit for Penny.

Then maybe that was the point in the beginning, Buffy is a fully fleshed out character while Penny wasn't really given the chance to be. But seven seasons is monstrous compared to 42 minutes. So, while I totally agree that Penny was stuck being a really flat character, the mini-series wasn't really about her. Penny is just the catalyst for Billy to become who he thought he wanted to be.

But it's hard to say if she would have been able to make a decision or a choice between Captain Hammer and Dr. Horrible. In this I think your article is spot-on. To me, she seemed like the type of woman who would ignore certain negative characteristics of someone because she saw the good in them. And here she would doom herself because I think she'd be hoping for that person to be more like she envisioned.

I do wonder how things would have gone for her if she hadn't been killed off.

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You're right in that Buffy had a lot of time to develop as a character, whereas Penny had very little. But my point was to compare and contrast how Whedon painted these triangles. I think that we are so used to seeing a character choose between two love interests that we don't stop to consider a third option. In Buffy, when Angel presses her to choose between him and Spike, she refuses. She chooses neither. Penny might have gone the same way, if she'd had the chance, but as an audience, I think we all assume Penny would have chosen (or even been better off with) Billy.

Billy wants two things:
1. To get into the ELE
2. To have a romantic relationship with Penny

Those two things are mutually exclusive. He can't have them both. He never could.

And that's where this false dichotomy comes in again. We assume Penny would go to Billy, but it seems unlikely that she would have dated him. His values directly conflict with hers, and he lies to her to make himself seem more appealing to her.

So, at the end, when we might think, "Oh! If only his gun hadn't broken! He might've been happy!" I think we're wrong. I don't think he would have been happy. And I don't think Penny would have been, either. Not with Billy.

Thank you! I *adore* meta!

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Billy wants two things:
1. To get into the ELE
2. To have a romantic relationship with Penny

Those two things are mutually exclusive. He can't have them both. He never could.

I'm totally writing this "mutually exclusive" relationship just because I want to see if I can. :) Well...when my brain comes back, that is.

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I'm totally writing this "mutually exclusive" relationship just because I want to see if I can.

I desperately want to read this. :D

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I can't remember if I saw this before--but I was really glad to see it, either way. Penny has always bothered me. She's just so...stereotypically good-girl, you know? And you are absolutely right about Billy's immature desire to have his cake and eat it too.

Maybe I have too much faith in Joss, but I can't help but think that's intentional.

You're right about the love triangle. Compared to Buffy/Spike/Angel though, it seems to be inverted. In Buffy, you have a fully developed protagonist defying expectations by not choosing one of the "love interests". In Dr. Horrible, the question isn't so much who or if Penny will choose; it's more about what the two guys will do to get her to choose.

I've never quite had time to sit down and sort DH out, but I think it doesn't have mcuh to say about women and conceptions of femininity. It seems to have a lot more to say about men and conceptions of masculinity. If Penny, as a character, didn't exist, the rivalry between Dr. Horrible and Captain Hammer would just be a comic book-style sendup of endless playground fights between jocks and geeks.

bunny_chan85 pointed out that Penny's just a catalyst. She brings out extremes of "guy"-ness in both characters: wimpy passive-aggressive nice-guy-ness in Billy and egotistical, misogynistic machismo in Captain Hammer. In the end, nobody gets the girl, nobody gets revenge, and nobody gets what he wanted--in part because guys can't live their lives striving for these stereotypes any more than women can live fully striving to be skinny cheerleaders or 1950s housewives or whatever feminine "ideal" one might aspire to.

Huh. I think there might be more than a few essays floating around in Dr. Horrible. :)

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I love it!

Huh. I think there might be more than a few essays floating around in Dr. Horrible. :)

Yes, please!

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I'm going to cross-post my comment above to your entry on GV...maybe spark some more discussion!

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AND I'll link you from Whedonesque, if you'd like. :)

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Now *there's* a scary thought! Go for it!

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:)

And there you are (http://whedonesque.com/comments/27319#more)...sharing the feed with Joss himself!

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HEE! I'm looking at the stats at TGV. So fun!

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Stats are AMAZING. So is the depth of discussion of your article...if you haven't looked at the Whedonesque comments, you totally should.

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It's really cool to get feedback on that essay. It's especially interesting to see people's interpretation of my interpretation. :) Thank you for posting that link!

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redcirce

This was great, I agree wholeheartedly, especially with the Buffy comparison.

I enjoyed Dr. Horrible a lot, but it failed on some levels for me, especially in how it relates to women. I understand that the particular focus of it was on male characters, but it still bugged me.

So much of Whedon's work plays on subverting stereotypes, and I feel like Penny never escaped hers- that of being the "nice girl"/love interest. It wouldn't have bothered me so much if there had been other important women characters in the series.

I think that what you point out- that she is treated as an object by the other characters- is intentional, but since Whedon didn't give her much of a personality, it sort of feels like he did the same.

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I think that what you point out- that she is treated as an object by the other characters- is intentional

I think you're right. This is what a lot of people at Whedonesque pointed out as well. Also, how much character development can you pour into a supporting character in a 45 minute time slot? But my point wasn't that Penny is a weak character.

Part of the tragedy of Dr. Horrible is that Billy gets what he wants (admission into the ELE) at the cost of something else he wants (Penny). Throughout the movie, we want him to get the girl, then he can't have her, and isn't that so sad? But, I was thinking, what would Penny want? She certainly wouldn't want Dr. Horrible. She'd actually be horrified by him. So this assumption I (and I assume many other people) had about Billy having the option to date Penny is a fallacy. Her choices, presented as Dr. Horrible and Captain Hammer, are a false dichotomy.

I also wanted to explicitly point out how Billy falls into the Nice Guy category. Any time we can point to a Nice Guy in media and say, "No," is a good thing, I think. It's a learning experience for everyone.

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redcirce

But my point wasn't that Penny is a weak character.
Sorry, I don't think I expressed what I meant there properly. I meant to say that I agreed with your point about her "choice", and say that additionally, my pet peeve was her lack of character development. I was trying to make some point about how I think some of the issues Whedon raised were intentional, but that the intentional issues ended up raising other issues that I don't think were (intentional). If that makes sense.

I also wanted to explicitly point out how Billy falls into the Nice Guy category
Yes, this! I hate how the audience is conditioned to want the underdog to "get the girl" regardless of whether they are actually suited to each other or whether she should be interested or not. And he was totally a Nice Guy, ugh.

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Sorry, late to the party. :(

I disagree with you about why Dr. Horrible couldn't pull the trigger on Captain Hammer. He had already stated earlier that he wasn't the killing type and, ultimately, Dr. Horrible/Billy is a Jekyll/Hyde situation and, by the time Dr. Horrible has to pull the trigger, Billy is the one doing the talking. "Head up Billy buddy," is what he says to himself, reverting to his other personality. Sure, Captain Hammer put into motion Dr. Horrible's actions in the auditorium, but that doesn't change who he is.

I don't normally see people talking about Dr. Horrible/Billy as an almost split-personality issue, which is how I see it, so that may be our main difference. Either way, Dr. Horrible wanted to get into the E.L.E. by using his brains, thus the Death Ray (with numerous research), and not by force. Killing wouldn't have really changed the status quo, now would it?

Btw, have you ever read the comics?

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Sorry, late to the party.

You are always welcome, even after-hours. :)

I disagree with you about why Dr. Horrible couldn't pull the trigger on Captain Hammer.

I didn't actually get into why he couldn't pull the trigger. Personally, I think he couldn't do it because he's not a murderer. It's not his nature.

The split personality idea is interesting. It's like he's got a Smeagol/Gollum thing going on right there.

I've not read the comics. Until this article got posted over at Whedonesque, I didn't even know there were comics!

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I didn't actually get into why he couldn't pull the trigger.

Sorry, that's the impression I got from reading the article which, admittedly, I skimmed late at night. I also wasn't too concerned with the whole Buffy aspect: I never cared for her relationships (never liked Angel, hated Spike, and, if anything, I liked Riley) and it's been way too long since I watched even an episode (over a year). I think she was just destined to be alone because, as everyone kept saying, she was the slayer.

Lol. Sorry, I find the whole Smeagol/Gollum comment funny. It's the same idea but Jekyll/Hyde came before that (and I've actually read that novella but have only seen the LotR movies). Still, that's how I find Dr. Horrible/Billy but with more blurring between the lines; they aren't split but two entities that have to figure each other out and live together. Which, in essence, was the whole idea of the webseries: you have to live with the good and the evil inside of you.

How can you not know about the comics?! One of them looks at the ElE, another at Dr. Horrible and Captain Hammer, and another just at Penny. There's also a Moist one but I prefer the last two. The one with Penny is actually super sweet.

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No worries. I think I wasn't as clear as I could have been, if the comments at Whedonesque are anything to go by. :)

I've never read Jekyll and Hyde, but I have the musical memorized! :D

How can you not know about the comics?

I don't know!!! I blame DW! LOL

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First of all: I have no idea what Whedonesque is. Not too much of a fan of his, even if I love his stuff. Although that doesn't make sense...I'll blame DW. ;)

Second: read Jekyll and Hyde! It's actually about ~100 pages and an easy read. Plus, it is just one of those pieces of literature referenced half of everywhere, imho.

Third: You cannot believe how happy I am to actually be back on LJ and replying to things. It would be ridiculous if it weren't so true.

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